Butter vs Plastic

admin — Mon, 22 Sep 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

> Heck, if we want to be alarmist – did you know that salt is only one > *atom* from being a deadly poisonous gas? Does that scare you? If it

Did you know that hemoglobin is only one atom from being chlorophyl ?!? Tony Stark is trying to turn us all into plants! — Wes Groleau Daily Hoax: http://www.snopes2.com/cgi-bin/random/random.asp

Response:

This post not CC’d by email > Heck, if we want to be alarmist – did you know that salt is only one > *atom* from being a deadly poisonous gas? Does that scare you? If it >Did you know that hemoglobin is only one atom from being >chlorophyl ?!? >Tony Stark is trying to turn us all into plants!

ROTFL. G’day G’day Wes, Nice one. FWIIW since the rains the snail population has boomed. Endeavoring to get some coriander and dill plants to last longer than over night I have used some eco safe snail pellets. They have Iron complexed with EDTA. As I understand it snail blood has a copper version of hemoglobin which makes their blood bluish. They don’t like having the single atom change from copper to iron, not one little bit. It is tempting to think that the conversion would soup them up they would race around the garden but this thought seems to fail the reality evidential test. Whatever. The dogs love the pellets despite what it says in the packet and if not watched will hunt for them like a treasure hunt in the garden. — Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / / "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Response:

- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> I think that is the point. Margarine started out as pretty cheap and > nasty stuff. Where the dairy lobby provided stiff opposition to its > introduction it improved and improved and improved. > Margarine was created when the French government wanted a cheap source of > fat. Before margarine was introduced, the poor were unable to get enough > fat in their diets. > How times have changed... > Colin Percival > PS. The royal academy, horrified by what they had invented, quickly passed a > motion to ensure that margarine could never be served in their

hall. I didn't realise you were that old, Colin! :-) Fancy remembering that far back. You beat me. Actually what I *do* remember from my childhood was the hard, crumbly white stuff made from whale oil, that no-one would eat if they had a choice. It *was* called margarine. About the only taste it had was that of rancid fat. My dear old dad used get it on sandwiches etc at the canteen at work, and decided he would rather starve than eat it. He brought some home to show us. I'm not surprised that the royal academy were horrified. He never complained about my mum buying butter from then on. Annette --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

> This post not CC'd by email

(snipped - no chlorophyl in *my* blood please!) - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> FWIIW since the rains the snail population has boomed. Endeavoring to > get some coriander and dill plants to last longer than over night I > have used some eco safe snail pellets. They have Iron complexed with > EDTA. As I understand it snail blood has a copper version of > hemoglobin which makes their blood bluish. They don't like having the > single atom change from copper to iron, not one little bit. It is > tempting to think that the conversion would soup them up they would > race around the garden but this thought seems to fail the reality > evidential test. > Whatever. The dogs love the pellets despite what it says in the packet > and if not watched will hunt for them like a treasure hunt in the > garden. > -- > Quentin

I spent years looking for a snail killer that my pets wouldn't sniff out and eat like dedicated addicts. I finally found one, that they completely ignore. Snails still love it though. It's made by Hortico (don't know if you have that in NZ), but it's darn hard to find in stores, and is somewhat more expensive than other brands. My tin says it contains the active ingredient 15g/kg of Metaldehyde. They DON'T say what the deterrent is though! It really seems to work. Only molluscs seem to like it, to the extent of eating just a crumb in preference to a tender little seedling right alongside. And their heamaphrodite relations are attracted to the dead snail, eat it, and die too! It's nearly as good as the crunch of a snail under one's boot. Annette --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

> It isn't true of the vast majority of "tub" margarines sold anywhere > in North America, either. If the margarine is nicely spreadable > straight out of the fridge then it *cannot* have a high percentage of > either trans or saturated fatty acids. Both of these make oils hard > at room temperatures and rock-hard at refrigerator temperatures.

Ed, that is a very sweeping statement. In Australia we have had soft, spreadable, straight from the fridge margarines that were much higher in trans fats. We still have soft, spreadable, straight from the fridge margarines with virtually no trans fat. Your statement could have detrimental effect on people in countries where trans fat isn't on the labels. Some people would think that because it was soft and spreadable it was safe. I think you need to back this up with a cite.

Response:

This post not CC'd by email >I see saying that margarine is only "one molecule" away from being >plastic to be very alarmist as well as misleading and, by the way, >untrue. >Ed

G'day G'day Ed et al, Although I happen to disagree with Ed on another point I whole heartedly agree with him on this point. This was not the only example of alarmist propaganda contained in the original post. Let's say for one moment purely for arguments sake, that the following statements represented the balance of scientific consensus. Ira> Increases the risk of cancers by up to five fold. Ira> Lowers quality of breast milk. Decreases immune Ira> response. Decreases insulin response. The dairy lobby here would be jumping up and down shouting with glee. If these statements were established with sufficient scientific certainty that the man on the street would call them proven facts, politicians of every political persuasion would want a piece of the action. Some of them might take a bit of convincing given that many people subscribe to the notion that margarine reduces the incidence of CHD, but wait that is already covered. Ira> Eating margarine can increase heart disease in women by 53% over Ira> eating the same amount of butter according to a recent Harvard Ira> Medical Study As it happens the earthquake from down South of here a few weeks back appears to be entirely natural and not connected to any jumping up and down of dairy company executives or their tame politicians. To me the position of the original poster holds water in the way a stack of sieves holds water. When one sieve doesn't hold water, another is stacked on top of it. The hope is that even though the reader will realise a particular statement doesn't hold water, they will buy into the notion that some other sieve does. For those who take an interest in such thing one can see the purpose is not to present an argument but an emotive build up. Cancer -> breast feeding and implied infant health -> eating plastic Let's take one of the statements. With so many statements one has a free choice. "Decreases immune response." What many people don't realise is that one function of the immune response is to produce inflammation. When yuppie margarines are omega-3 enriched as many of them are here in New Zealand, they are anti-inflammatory. It sounds bad ... decreasing the immune response but unless one is troubled by parasites, insect bites etc decreasing inflammation is probably a good thing. This doesn't mean all margarines are anti-inflammatory. It all depends on the omega-6:omega-3 ratio in the product. Best wishes, -- Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / / "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Response:

This post not CC'd by email > I think that is the point. Margarine started out as pretty cheap and > nasty stuff. Where the dairy lobby provided stiff opposition to its > introduction it improved and improved and improved. > Margarine was created when the French government wanted a cheap source of >fat. Before margarine was introduced, the poor were unable to get enough >fat in their diets. > How times have changed... >Colin Percival >PS. The royal academy, horrified by what they had invented, quickly passed a >motion to ensure that margarine could never be served in their hall.

G'day G'day Colin, An interesting historical snippet. Best wishes, -- Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / / "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Response:

>> Heck, if we want to be alarmist - did you know that salt is only one > *atom* from being a deadly poisonous gas? Does that scare you? If > it does you are scientifically illiterate, as the person who made the > absolutely silly nonsense claim above must certainly be as well. >Was that called for?

I thought it was, at the time. It still seems like perfectly fair comment to me. >Ira has posted information he has seen and >Quentin has challenged one of the comments. I don't see anything >alarmist in either of their posts.

I see saying that margarine is only "one molecule" away from being plastic to be very alarmist as well as misleading and, by the way, untrue. Ed

Response:

> Heck, if we want to be alarmist - did you know that salt is only one > *atom* from being a deadly poisonous gas? Does that scare you? If it > does you are scientifically illiterate, as the person who made the > absolutely silly nonsense claim above must certainly be as well.

Was that called for? Ira has posted information he has seen and Quentin has challenged one of the comments. I don't see anything alarmist in either of their posts.

Response:

>> It isn't true of the vast majority of "tub" margarines sold anywhere > in North America, either. If the margarine is nicely spreadable > straight out of the fridge then it *cannot* have a high percentage >of either trans or saturated fatty acids. Both of these make oils hard > at room temperatures and rock-hard at refrigerator temperatures. >Ed, that is a very sweeping statement. In Australia we have had soft, >spreadable, straight from the fridge margarines that were much higher >in trans fats.

Er, define "much higher". If an oil is soft at refrigerator temperatures then it is largely unsaturated or monounsaturated. If it has trans fats or saturated fats they will be in a low proportion. I would be very surprised if any brand of margarine that is spreadable right out of the refrigerator has much more than 10% or 15% of it's fats in the form of trans or saturated fats. That's not a high concentration in my book, but then you might define "high" differently. >We still have soft, spreadable, straight from the >fridge margarines with virtually no trans fat.

Yes, and they all have higher levels of saturated fats in them to make them solid enough not to pour. Probably preferable to high levels of trans fats, of course, but if they are around 15% total I don't see this as "high" in trans fatty acids or saturated fatty acids. >Your statement could >have detrimental effect on people in countries where trans fat isn't >on the labels. Some people would think that because it was soft and >spreadable it was safe.

I did most certainly did *not* say or even imply that margarines with low levels of trans-fatty acids were safe. Even polyunsaturated fats and oils can be unsafe depending on how they are processed. So if people want to think that just because a particular brand of margarine is low in saturated fats or in trans-fats they are "safe" that is their opinion, not mine, and I don't see why I should feel in any way responsible for their bad reasoning. Personally I avoid margarine altogether. If I'm going to spread fat on my bread I use butter. That's my personal choice and no one else is responsible for it or should be guided by it.

Response:

I don't think the original post was supposed to be dead on serious. JMO! Sleepy - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text ->>And here is the most disturbing fact.... >>Margarine is but ONE MOLECULE from being PLASTIC...!!!! > What is most disturbing about this is that the statement is >essentially meaningless. >Both butter and margarine are a mixture of molecules. >As is everything else you see around you and the air you breath as >well. >Heck, if we want to be alarmist - did you know that salt is only one >*atom* from being a deadly poisonous gas? Does that scare you? If it >does you are scientifically illiterate, as the person who made the >absolutely silly nonsense claim above must certainly be as well.

Support bacteria. They're the only culture some people have

Response:

This post not CC'd by email - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text ->>Now for Margarine... Very high in Trans Fatty Acids. >This is true in some countries. It isn't true of spreadable >margarines sold in NZ where intense lobbying years ago ensured they >must have less than 0.9% trans fats. >It isn't true of the vast majority of "tub" margarines sold anywhere >in North America, either. If the margarine is nicely spreadable >straight out of the fridge then it *cannot* have a high percentage of >either trans or saturated fatty acids. Both of these make oils hard >at room temperatures and rock-hard at refrigerator temperatures. >Any easily cold-spreadable margarine therefore has a low percentage of >trans-fats in it, period. It may have lots of other things wrong with >it, of course, but a high percentage of trans fats isn't one of them.

G'day G'day Ed, I love it when blokes say, blah,blah, period. It is sounds almost like a papal pronouncement to mix a metaphor or two. One can wait for the facts to orbit around and smack them or present some evidence as a basis for discussion. The later seems kinder. 1: Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Sep;78(3):370-5. Effect of different forms of dietary hydrogenated fats on LDL particle size. Mauger JF, Lichtenstein AH, Ausman LM, Jalbert SM, Jauhiainen M, Ehnholm C, Lamarche B. Institute on Nutraceuticals and Functional Foods, Laval University, Quebec, Canada. [snip] semiliquid margarine (0.6 g trans FAs/100 g fat), soft margarine (9.4 g trans FAs/100 g fat), shortening (13.6 g trans FAs/100 g fat), stick margarine (26.1 g trans FAs/100 g fat), or butter, which was low in trans FAs (2.6 g trans FAs/100 g fat) but rich in saturated fat. Words, words, words. How our personal understanding of them can deceive us. My interpretation of "soft margarine" is spreadable margarine, the sort people take out of the refrigerator and spread on their toast. Perhaps it isn’t. But if it is then it has ten times the maximum allowable trans fats of NZ and presumably Australian spreadable margarines. For those that are wondering trans fat refers to a mixture of related fats with a similar geometric feature. Those found in partially hydrogenated margarine tend to have a high proportion of elaidic acid. Those found in butter tend to have a high proportion of vaccinic acid. Vaccinic acid may even be beneficial as it can be converted to conjugated linoleic acid,CLA. Elaidic acid appears to be harmful as the percentages creep up. Your hypothesis that spreadable margarines must have LESS trans and saturated fats to be spreadable has some validity. One can clearly see the stick margarine(solid) has over 25% trans fat and the semi liquid margarine less than 1%. The question is what is in the tubs of spreadable margarine in different countries. If one were to follow your logic that the table margarines HAD to have low trans fats in order to be spreadable then the legislation passed in NZ would have no point. The dairy companies lobbied for the low level (<0.9%) anticipating it would be difficult to meet. If it was automatic they could have saved their breath. Best wishes, — Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / / "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Response:

>>And here is the most disturbing fact.... >Margarine is but ONE MOLECULE from being PLASTIC...!!!! > What is most disturbing about this is that the statement is >essentially meaningless. >Both butter and margarine are a mixture of molecules.

As is everything else you see around you and the air you breath as well. Heck, if we want to be alarmist - did you know that salt is only one *atom* from being a deadly poisonous gas? Does that scare you? If it does you are scientifically illiterate, as the person who made the absolutely silly nonsense claim above must certainly be as well.

Response:

>>Now for Margarine... Very high in Trans Fatty Acids. >This is true in some countries. It isn't true of spreadable >margarines sold in NZ where intense lobbying years ago ensured they >must have less than 0.9% trans fats.

It isn't true of the vast majority of "tub" margarines sold anywhere in North America, either. If the margarine is nicely spreadable straight out of the fridge then it *cannot* have a high percentage of either trans or saturated fatty acids. Both of these make oils hard at room temperatures and rock-hard at refrigerator temperatures. Any easily cold-spreadable margarine therefore has a low percentage of trans-fats in it, period. It may have lots of other things wrong with it, of course, but a high percentage of trans fats isn't one of them.

Response:

>In case anyone is wondering I don't have either butter or margarine in >the house. Don't know what I would do with them if I did.

Have you seen "Last Tango in Paris"?..... Cheers Alan, T2, Oz

Response:

> I think that is the point. Margarine started out as pretty cheap and > nasty stuff. Where the dairy lobby provided stiff opposition to its > introduction it improved and improved and improved.

Margarine was created when the French government wanted a cheap source of fat. Before margarine was introduced, the poor were unable to get enough fat in their diets. How times have changed... Colin Percival PS. The royal academy, horrified by what they had invented, quickly passed a motion to ensure that margarine could never be served in their hall.

Response:

This post not CC'd by email >Now for Margarine... Very high in Trans Fatty Acids. >Triple risk of Coronary Heart Disease >Increases total and LDL ( this is the bad cholesterol). Lowers HDL >cholesterol and this is the good one.

G'day G'day, In all things one must be careful to make necessary distinctions. What happens with low trans fat margarine? Does it represent the same risk factors as high trans fat margarine? The margarine is only "novel" if you live in the US where the dairy lobbying was less effective than the soy/canola/corn/sunflower lobbies. While this piece of research shows lowering of the blood levels of LDL cholesterol with the use of trans free margarine, don't rush to the conclusion that this necessarily means lower arteriosclerosis risk. There are other factors eg the inflammatory response. That will depend on the relative quantities of omega-3 and omega-6 in the margarine amongst other things. 1: Nutr Metab Cardiovasc Dis. 2001 Oct;11(5):320-6. Serum cholesterol response to replacing butter with a new trans-free margarine in hypercholesterolemic subjects. Tonstad S, Strom EC, Bergei CS, Ose L, Christophersen B. Lipid Clinic, Medical Department A, National Hospital, Oslo, Norway. Margarine leads to lower total and LDL cholesterol (LDL-C) levels than butter but may contain trans fatty acids that increase atherogenic lipids. A food company has used data concerning the cholesterolemic effects of individual fatty acids, including trans fatty acids, to develop a commercially available and virtually trans-free margarine. OBJECTIVE: The effect of this novel margarine on serum lipids and lipoproteins was compared with that of butter in free-living, hypercholesterolemic subjects. DESIGN AND SETTING: A two-period, outpatient cross-over trial at a university hospital lipid clinic. SUBJECTS: The study involved 77 subjects, and was completed by 53 men and 19 women aged 35-65 years with total serum cholesterol levels of between 6.0 and 7.9 mmol/L. INTERVENTION: Two 23-day regimens, separated by a 4-week washout period, included individualised dietary prescriptions supplemented with butter or margarine designed to provide 15% of total dietary energy. RESULTS: In comparison with butter, margarine intake lowered total and LDL-C ^^^^^^^ levels by respectively 11.1% (99% CI: 8.1-14.1) and 11.3% (99% CI: 7.6-15.1). The reduction in LDL-C was < 3% in nearly one-fifth of the subjects despite appropriate changes in serum triglyceride fatty acids. Of the tested clinical and demographic variables, only the percentage of energy obtained from saturated fat during the margarine intake period was associated with dietary responsiveness (explaining 12% of the variation; p < 0.01). CONCLUSION: Our results suggest that a margarine designed to meet nutritional recommendations for hypercholesterolemia is more efficacious than butter in reducing atherogenic lipid levels in hypercholesterolemic subjects. Publication Types: Clinical Trial Randomized Controlled Trial PMID: 11887429 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] — Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / / "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Response:

This post not CC'd by email >The forces > of competition are almost certain to ensure manufacturers swiftly > adopt the solutions current in practice in countries like NZ. >And Oz I also checked both types of margarine I have in the house >at present and neither have more than a minimal amount of sat fats and >even less of trans fats. Taste is great for the one with added plant >sterols too.

G'day G'day Ozgirl, I think that is the point. Margarine started out as pretty cheap and nasty stuff. Where the dairy lobby provided stiff opposition to its introduction it improved and improved and improved. In case anyone is wondering I don't have either butter or margarine in the house. Don't know what I would do with them if I did. Best wishes, -- Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / / "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Response:

This post not CC'd by email >Eating butter increases the absorption of many other nutrients >in other foods. Butter has many nutritional benefits where >margarine has a few only because they are added.

G'day G'day Ira, For the moment it is unclear what these many nutritional benefits for butter might be but it is apparent you are suggesting absorption from OTHER foods. Let's take a look at this hypothesis. Here is some research that looks at uptake of calcium from dairy products when margarine replaces butter. Unfortunately for your hypothesis, uptake of calcium and vit D is improved by using margarine. 1: Pol Arch Med Wewn. 2002 Oct;108(4):953-8. [Increased serum levels of vitamin D and calcium in young men after replacement of butter with soft margarine in usual diet] [Article in Polish] Kozlowska-Wojciechowska M, Makarewicz-Wujec M, Nowicka G. Zaklad Upowszechniania Wiedzy o Zywnosci i Zywieniu Instytutu Zywnosci i Zywienia. Osteoporosis features include reduction of bone mass and increased predisposition to fractures. Osteoporosis is considered as one of frequent diseases developing in menopausal women and old men. The values of peak bone mass are the determinant of osteoporosis development. It is estimated that the peak bone mass is reached at the age between 16 and 30 years. (NIH Consensus, 2001). Insufficient intake of calcium and vitamin D in diet, with reduced sun exposure, low physical activity, low body weight are well documented risk factors for this disease in human. For that reason, in osteoporosis prevention it should be tried to ensure adequate supply of calcium in diet from early life, with adequate supply of vitamin D, as factors determining adequate mineralization of osseous tissue. The study was carried out for assessing changes of the levels of calcium and 25-OH cholecalciferol in serum replacing butter in usual diet with margarine enriched with vitamin D. After a period of diet stabilization the study group received first diet with butter, followed by diet with margarine in place of butter. Throughout the whole experiment the diet contained unchanged amounts of dairy products as a source of alimentary calcium. In the experiment 41 young healthy men aged 22.6 +/- 1.2 years participated. Every subject consumed in a period of 4 weeks 30 g of butter daily, and during the following 4 weeks margarine 30 g daily. Substitution of margarine for butter in usual diet raised 25-OH cholecalciferol level in serum by 5.56 ng/ml, that is 32.4% (p < 0.001), with consequent 0.12 mg (5%) rise of serum calcium level (p < 0.05). The intake of calcium with diet from dairy products was unchanged throughout the experiment 576-581 mg daily, that is 72% of the recommended intake. The obtained results suggest that independently of the amount of vitamin D intake with food and calcium with diet substitution of margarine enriched with vitamin D for butter was beneficial raising serum vitamin D level, and at the same time increasing calcium absorption from food. It can be accepted that the obtained results could support the opinion on beneficial effects of the consumption of high-quality margarine in daily diet as prevention of the development not only of atherosclerosis but also osteoporosis. PMID: 12642939 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] — Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / / "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Response:

This post not CC'd by email >And here is the most disturbing fact.... >Margarine is but ONE MOLECULE from being PLASTIC...!!!!

G'day G'day Ira, What is most disturbing about this is that the statement is essentially meaningless. Both butter and margarine are a mixture of molecules. Best wishes, -- Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / / "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Response:

This post not CC'd by email >Increases total and LDL ( this is the bad cholesterol). Lowers HDL >cholesterol and this is the good one.

G'day G'day Ira, You would appear to be referring to the effects of trans fats. One of the good things that comes out of posts like this is the opportunity it provides to revisit some subjects. In this instance there is a startling admission that trans fats produce the nasty small dense LDL. I have taken the liberty of reformatting the abstract for easier reading. Notice how margarine is NOT a single product and trans fat content increase with the degree of hardening. 1: Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Sep;78(3):370-5. Effect of different forms of dietary hydrogenated fats on LDL particle size. Mauger JF, Lichtenstein AH, Ausman LM, Jalbert SM, Jauhiainen M, Ehnholm C, Lamarche B. Institute on Nutraceuticals and Functional Foods, Laval University, Quebec, Canada. BACKGROUND: Dietary trans fatty acids (FAs), which are formed during the process of hydrogenating vegetable oil, are known to increase plasma LDL-cholesterol concentrations. However, their effect on LDL particle size has yet to be investigated. OBJECTIVE: We investigated the effect of trans FA consumption on the electrophoretic characteristics of LDL particles. DESIGN: Eighteen women and 18 men each consumed 5 experimental diets in random order for 35-d periods. Fat represented 30% of total energy intake in each diet, with two-thirds of the fat in the form of semiliquid margarine (0.6 g trans FAs/100 g fat), soft margarine (9.4 g trans FAs/100 g fat), shortening (13.6 g trans FAs/100 g fat), stick margarine (26.1 g trans FAs/100 g fat), or butter, which was low in trans FAs (2.6 g trans FAs/100 g fat) but rich in saturated fat. LDL particle size and distribution were characterized by nondenaturing, 2-16% polyacrylamide gradient gel electrophoresis. RESULTS: Relative to the LDL particle size observed after consumption of the butter-enriched diet, LDL particle size decreased significantly and in a dose-dependent fashion with increasing amounts of dietary trans FAs (P < 0.001). Cholesterol concentrations in large (> 260 A) and medium-sized (255-260 A) LDL particles also increased proportionately to the amount of trans FAs in the diet. CONCLUSION: Consumption of dietary trans FAs is associated with a deleterious increase in small, dense LDL, which further reinforces the importance of promoting diets low in trans FAs to favorably affect the lipoprotein profile. PMID: 12936917 [PubMed - in process] Best wishes, — Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / / "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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This post not CC’d by email >No flies, not even those pesky fruit flies will go near it, >(that should tell you something)

G’day G’day Ira, Fruit flies are attracted to the fermentation products of sugars. What it tells me is the margarine doesn’t contain fermentable sugar. Best wishes, — Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / / "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Response:

This post not CC’d by email >Now for Margarine… Very high in Trans Fatty Acids.

G’day G’day Ira, This is true in some countries. It isn’t true of spreadable margarines sold in NZ where intense lobbying years ago ensured they must have less than 0.9% trans fats. In international forums it easy to forget that what is true in America at this moment in time isn’t necessarily true in other countries and most likely won’t be true once the Americans introduce trans fats labeling legislation. The forces of competition are almost certain to ensure manufacturers swiftly adopt the solutions current in practice in countries like NZ. Best wishes. — Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / / "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Response:

DID YOU KNOW… Both have the same amount of calories. Butter is slightly higher in saturated fats at 8 grams compared to 5 grams Eating margarine can increase heart disease in women by 53% over eating the same amount of butter according to a recent Harvard Medical Study Eating butter increases the absorption of many other nutrients in other foods. Butter has many nutritional benefits where margarine has a few only because they are added. Butter tastes much better than margarine and it can enhance the flavors of other foods. Butter has been around for centuries where margarine has been around for less then 100 years. Now for Margarine… Very high in Trans Fatty Acids. Triple risk of Coronary Heart Disease Increases total and LDL ( this is the bad cholesterol). Lowers HDL cholesterol and this is the good one. Increases the risk of cancers by up to five fold. Lowers quality of breast milk. Decreases immune response. Decreases insulin response. And here is the most disturbing fact…. Margarine is but ONE MOLECULE from being PLASTIC…!!!! ( This fact alone was enough to have me avoiding margarine for life and anything else that is hydrogenated. This means Hydrogen is added changing the molecular structure of the food ) YOU can try this yourself. Purchase a tub of margarine and leave it in your garage or a shaded area. Within a couple of days you will note a couple of things. No flies, not even those pesky fruit flies will go near it, (that should tell you something) It does not rot, or smell differently…Because it has no nutritional value, nothing will grow on it, even those teeny weeny microorganisms will not find a home to grow…Why? Because it is nearly plastic. Would you melt your Tupperware and spread that on your toast? I LOVE BUTTER BETTER ANYWAY….. — — If you eat something and no one sees you eat it, it has no calories.

Response:

The forces > of competition are almost certain to ensure manufacturers swiftly > adopt the solutions current in practice in countries like NZ.

And Oz I also checked both types of margarine I have in the house at present and neither have more than a minimal amount of sat fats and even less of trans fats. Taste is great for the one with added plant sterols too.

Response:

A second modest proposal

admin — Thu, 14 Aug 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

> After the excellent example of Jonathon Swift, and continuing in > the vein of my earlier proposal (that MD s not be allowed to > treat thyroid disorders until at least 6 months after drinking > a nice thyroid-killing RAI) I would like to make a new modest > proposal. > I propose we all write to our congresscritters (here in the > US of A, people elsewhere will need to make the appropriate > substitutions as to targets for these missives) and demand > that the FDA outlaw TSH testing. TSH testing clearly fails > the two critical FDA mandates — 1) it must be effective, > and 2) it must be safe.

imho, we, in the USA, need these things: we need to put the brakes on skyrocketing health care costs in the USA, whether it’s for docs or meds or whatever we need to get the media (especially TV news) out of the "health care" loop we need the FDA to change drastically, mainly to be more of a provider of information and to be *less* of a watchdog. there are *no* meds that are perfectly safe, and it is the patient (primarily) who should be made aware of that coz the docs and FDA already know it we need to have patients play a bigger part in their own health care, and especially to be a bigger part of their own medical team > TSH testing has lead to systematic under-diagnosing and > under-treatment of thyroid disorders, to the point where > people have ended up in emergency rooms in myxedemic > coma before diagnosis (rare, but it has happened). Such > examples clearly demonstrate that TSH testing is not effective, > and depending upon it puts patients at risk. > (Only half tongue in cheek…)

i’ve no tongue in cheek on the above. :) as far as i’ve been able to figure out, the only way it’s gonna happen is if we have everyone in the USA pay out of pocket but for that to happen, we’ll also need some draconian changes in the political arena. for one we’d need to outlaw health insurance from work. for another we’d need to mandate that insurers could not exclude anyone nor charge different rates/coverage for those who’ve pre-existing conditions. not to mention that the employers would be obliged to pay that saved health care cost money to the employees, and maybe even that it be ID’d as "health" income and not be taxed which is why it won’t happen and will contine to get worse for as far as i can see into the future bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Sincerely > Kevin

Response:

> we need to put the brakes on skyrocketing > health care costs in the USA, whether it’s > for docs or meds or whatever

ITA with everything you said, but for me it’s particularly aggravating to have to pay for health insurance which is supposed to cover my health care, but then have to go OUT of the system to pay out of pocket for my thyroid treatment (doctor’s visits, lab tests, pills) because no doctor in the HMO in this area would even treat me, with a tsh of 3.5. I feel like I’m being gouged…when I pay for a lab test, for example, I have to pay whatever the lab asks, but when my dh needs a lab test, he pays a small copay and it’s just astounding how much the ins. co. lowers the bill. For example, he had over $300 in tests recently, and the ins. co. lowered it to 1/10th of that…that’s all they paid – $30 – and the lab had to eat the rest, because of their agreement with the ins. co. But the private patient (or uninsured patient) would have to pay the entire $300. Same thing with the doctor. My dh paid $15 copay (we do pay for ins. for both of us) to an HMO doctor for his medical problem, but because I have to go to a private doctor to get thyroid treatment, I have to pay $75 for each visit, whereas if a HMO doctor saw me and actually believed I needed thyroid treatment, my copay would have been $15 too. I pay all this because I need to and it’s worth it to get my health back, so I don’t usually complain, but since you brought up the skyrocketing costs, I thought I’d mention this, because I’m sure it’s a problem for alot of people.

Response:

> Today our hodge podge system sees a man I know with many > assets getting free care where he never qualified by > any personal action is getting free care and supplies. > But a person that has paid for insurance since 1947 > taking an economic beating in old age is a bit peeved.. > It seem like I pay about the same out of pocket costs as > long ago, before insurance coverage,but the prices have > risen until all of the supposed gains are soaked up.

you’re focusing on details and not fundamentals > It will go on for now, but without an answer. It is like a rubber > band tightening. Finally snap.,

it’s not unlike price controls vs. free markets iow, it takes a lot of time for truth to show up. it took the falacy of the USSR system 74 years to "snap" what bothers me about our current direction on health care in the USA is that we continue to put more and more of the money into the pocket of the system which means that there is less money in our own pockets coz that money has to come from somewhere. it also means that others get overly involved in making the health care decisions that we should be making ourselves (with their secondary assistance) it’s no surprise to me that the current democrat proposals are all going in the direction of putting more money into the pocket of the system. i doubt very much that it will be a good long term solution. :( bill

Response:

>> imho, we, in the USA, need these things: > we need to put the brakes on skyrocketing > health care costs in the USA, whether it’s > for docs or meds or whatever > Why are the costs skyrocketing? Reasons – > 1.) Older population increases insurance rates > 2.) The hypothyroid and what he costs, all the problems below originated with > low thyroid -

hi skipper, thank you for a thoughtful response. :) imo, the costs wouldn’t be skyrocketing if we all paid out of pocket coz paying out of pocket is the one best thing that provides real restraint. when it’s the other guy’s dollar, there’s NO restraint > Son- > I paid for ear infections, opthamology when my son lost vision in one eye for > about a year, doctor visits for anorexia for an 8 year old boy, glasses to > protect one good eye, psychiatrist to prescribe Toffranil because it can…

> Wife – > The pain of watching a happy, active person have a baby and as is common with > hypos, go into severe postpartum depression for a number of years. Several > pregnancy tests when periods were five months apart. At least six different > doctors ran thyroid labs. The pain of listening to her stories about how she…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> As for me, I have amblyopia, a lazy eye which one gets when nerve pathways > don’t develop properly. Unlike my brother, I never looked crosseyed in my life > so there were no signs except when I got older, very poor vision in that eye. > It started at a young age. I was incredibly slow physically, slow reflexes, I got… > I went on 3 grains of Armour, much got better. My painful "plantar fascitis" > went away, and the podiatrist said that meant it had been a nerve problem, > which thyroid is well known for causing. I got a reasonable amount of energy. > Everything would have been great had I not listened to my doctor at one point > in treatment and reduced my dosage, but that’s another story and why I know > food getting stuck in your throat and choking awake at night are signs of > goiter. > Thousands upon thousands upon thousands of wasted dollars. > Yep, that’s why costs are skyrocketing all right. Doctors don’t know how to > treat the sick. This greatly raises the cost of health insurance.

imo, paying out of pocket is the best way to solve this coz the *patient* would STRESS/focus-on costs and alternatives with the doc(s), and would go elsewhere the moment they felt that the doc wasn’t doing that for them – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> we need to get the media (especially TV news) > out of the "health care" loop > we need the FDA to change drastically, mainly > to be more of a provider of information and to > be *less* of a watchdog. there are *no* > meds that are perfectly safe, and it is the > patient (primarily) who should be made aware > of that coz the docs and FDA already know it > Give the health care profession a choice between Claritin (or the newest > patented drug that replaced it) and Armour Thyroid and the medical profession > will go for the Claritin. If they changed that behaviour there would be a huge > and drastic recession in the health care industry. Knowing that drug companies > are more willing to go for potent chemicals to control symptoms, and that drugs > are already quite dangerous enough I’m not sure it would achieve your goal.

imo, paying out of pocket would solve this too. :) > we need to have patients play a bigger part > in their own health care, and especially to be > a bigger part of their own medical team > Yes, I think Nora said in her country the doctor will give you what you need > but you might have to sign a medical waiver to get it. That would be fine. > The doctors shouldn’t have the power to decide life or death based on what > treatment they are willing to offer.

agreed. :) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> as far as i’ve been able to figure out, the only > way it’s gonna happen is if we have everyone in > the USA pay out of pocket > Had there been no health insurance, the costs would have stayed down. If it > followed the course of a story by one person who understood total capitalism > and its price, Jack London, a poor guy would have had a job, but he would get > sick and go to the doctor and if he had gotten an antibiotic from the doctor he > would have made it to work, to keep from starving and being thrown out of the > house. But, since this is Jack London (ever read "A Piece of Steak), he gets > no antibiotic, he can’t go to work because he can’t get out of bed until the > owner of his apartment throws him out into the street. (I never knew when I > read his stories he was a communist, I’m not but he got pure capitalism right. > Ever hear of "Compassionate Conservatism"? Rush Limbaugh coined that phrase I > believe, I would consider that to be a program like ‘Habitat for Humanit" where > you get a house at a discount but you put sweat equity in it, and then you pay > an interest free cost for the cost of the materials put into the home. The > Democrats, like Jimmy Carter are involved in that program that to me fits the > perfect ideal of elevating people while making them responsible. As for the > Republicans, I think their take on "Compassionate Conservatism" was to cut the > welfare rolls just when the economy was booming in the USA, take credit for all > the people that were working and no longer unemployed, and then without all > those huge welfare cuts in the budget anymore, go broke at the first sign of > recession. Small welfare roll, shouldn’t that have meant a bigger bank account > for hard times? Or how about the idea of being taxed at a flat tax of 15.3% > (the Fica employer / employee match on wages) in addition to regular income tax > rates for working hard to make a living while other people can sit back and > collect dividends at special rates so they can save moe money? > That all meant the rich get richer and the poor get poorer these days and the > middle class shrinks as though some enemies within our own country thought many > years ahead to devise a way to make us eventually shrink to the power and > importance of a third world nation.

i get worried when part of the response includes "the rich get richer" coz there’s a real chance that you’re not seeing the fundamentals. btw, i’m not always the best on details, at least in what goes on in the health care biz, but i’m a decent system analyst and tend to see fundaments ok iow, i’m not worried about the rich getting richer so long as they help in getting better health care that is less expensive and available to everyone. that’s a win/win in my book also see my reponse to guy williams (which i x-posted into the thyroid n/g) > but for that to happen, we’ll also need some > draconian changes in the political arena.

> for one we’d need to outlaw health insurance

> from work. for another we’d need to mandate > that insurers could not exclude anyone

> nor charge different rates/coverage for those

> who’ve pre-existing conditions. not to mention > that the employers would be obliged > to pay that saved health care cost money to the

> employees, and maybe even that it be ID’d > as "health" income and not be taxed

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Let me see, in the USA, they started talking about the health crises around the > same time as they raised the floor beneath which you got no itemized deduction > from 5% to 7.5% of adjusted gross income. So, if you were unlucky enough to be > sick, the government raised your deductible when they knew about the crises. > They talked about implementing prescription coverage for medicare and I went to > the local lab and they had a petition to prevent those same patients from > having to pay an increased deductible for lab costs. Our government does a lot > of things that look good, but then go in both directions where they give > someone a break and then find a way to also sneakily add to the tax burden of > that person. > You know, the health care system has knowingly killed and caused to suffer more > people than terrorrists ever will. Maybe our soldiers should be parked on the > steps of the International Corporations that are permitting this, as well as > the International Corporations that wanted our peaceful country to be at war. > Unfortunately, unless we all find a way to unite in mass numbers we can’t hope > to change things. When you hear celebrities on the radio talking about how > great this country is and the importance of "diversity" do you think maybe the > "diversity" is good because the more diverse a population is, the less likely > it is to agree to the extent our founding fathers did? Maybe that’s why > blacks leaders agitate blacks against whites and tell them how unfairly we’ve > treated them? It’s likely our President was elected because he seemed to have > high moral values, which is why most of the people not on the East or West > Coast voted for him.

i’m leary of making comments on details, important as they may be i can say that it’s not clear to me exactly what political changes (of which i suggested a few above, which i underlined) we’d need to make in order for us to move to paying out of pocket bill

Response:

> imo, the costs wouldn’t be skyrocketing if we > all paid out of pocket coz paying out of pocket > is the one best thing that provides real restraint. > when it’s the other guy’s dollar, there’s NO restraint

The only problem I have with your solution is that if you are one of those who cannot possibly pay catastrophic or even regular costs because of their income, should you just go off somewhere and die? If you have no extra discretionary income to pay even the "restrained" costs, what are you, just chopped liver? I am being serious. I was born with a pre-existing condition that caused kidney failure. Treatment choices consist of either dialysis, an organ transplant for as long as it lasts, or death. Both of the first two treatments are going to be incredibly expenses no matter how much costs are restrained, and beyond my ability to earn a matching income. I guess I just should go somewhere and die to make you it cheaper for everybody else to live. What happens when the healthy (for now) community says that even your disease is not worth society paying for? I do not have any answers either, but I know that my ability to pay will never match my needs. Dennis (Type 2, Kidney Transplant 1995, Glaucoma) — The temperature has already climbed over 70 fahrenheit on its way to another sweltering day. The brutal cancerous glare of the sun continues to beat down mercilessly. Pollen will soon be choking the air along with the smog. The West Nile laden mosquitos drone on incessantly, lying in wait for a chance to pounce. In other words, it is the start of just another typical day in the Hell on this Earth that every body else lovingly calls summer.

Response:

> I guess > I just should go somewhere and die to make you it cheaper for everybody > else to live.

But if your health costs make it so that I cannot afford insurance and so my child dies? > What happens when the healthy (for now) community says > that even your disease is not worth society paying for?

The thing is, society never pays for anything. People do. If you don’t pay for your health costs, someone else must. If I can no longer afford your health costs and mine, whose should I neglect? I am sorry that you are sick, but it’s not my fault. — 382/370/200 Concerned about Atkins’? July 25, 2003 http://tinyurl.com/hgcx — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I guess > I just should go somewhere and die to make you it cheaper for everybody > else to live. > But if your health costs make it so that I cannot afford insurance and > so my child dies? > What happens when the healthy (for now) community says > that even your disease is not worth society paying for? > The thing is, society never pays for anything. People do. If you don’t > pay for your health costs, someone else must. If I can no longer afford your > health costs and mine, whose should I neglect? > I am sorry that you are sick, but it’s not my fault. > —

It is also not my fault if your house catches fire, your car is hit by somebody else, or else you are robbed or assaulted and need police services. We all pay for everybody else for something, be it through insurance or taxes. The debate becomes what services do we pool our money for, and what do we pay for completely by ourselves. Again, I do not have any hard answers, I am just asking questions. Dennis (Type 2) — The temperature has already climbed over 70 fahrenheit on its way to another sweltering day. The brutal cancerous glare of the sun continues to beat down mercilessly. Pollen will soon be choking the air along with the smog. The West Nile laden mosquitos drone on incessantly, lying in wait for a chance to pounce. In other words, it is the start of just another typical day in the Hell on this Earth that every body else lovingly calls summer.

Response:

Greetings from an Undiagnosed Newbie

admin — Fri, 08 Aug 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

First, I would like to extend my sincere greetings to the group, and for all of the information I have garnered by lurking the past couple of weeks, offer my utmost thanks! Second… this is my very first posting to a newsgroup, so I hope I am doing this properly. To offer some background on myself… I am male, 49 years old, 6′, 300# and a smoker, and due to a work injury, a retired auto mechanic and now a ‘house-husband’, married for 27 wonderful years. I’ve always enjoyed good health, till back in ’82 when Dr’s treated me after suffering a mini Cerebral Vascular Accident or stroke, which my Dr. said was brought about by stress. I initially suffered partial paralysis on my left side, loss of clear speech and such, but thru mostly home therapy and determination, I was able to regain most of my physical abilities, can walk but not run, swim, was able to work again after 1.75 years of recovery… up until my leg and back injury forced me into early retirement. My mother’s father, now deceased, was type II diabetic. No other references to diabetes in my family history are known. Two months ago, after a lengthy discussion on diabetes with my neighbor, who is Type II diabetic, I learned that I may be diabetic as well. We discussed the symptoms and the physical troubles he suffers due to this disease, and after hearing that I too had some of the symptoms and troubles, to which I initially attributed to other causes, he gave me his spare MediSense Precision QID Test kit. He taught me how to use the meter, and explained the prescribed testing times, for instance… how to do a Fasting Blood Glucose Test, testing just before and then again 2 hrs after meals, and at bedtime. My symptoms and troubles are constant thirst and urination (no ‘frequency’ about it), a weak / washed out / no energy kind of feeling, a tingling and an over-sensitivity in fingers and toes, feet and hands, numbness in my left hand, and a burning or freezing feeling in the soles of my feet. Of late, frequent bouts of nausea, slightly blurred vision, and I now often experience leg spasms in the evening and while sleeping. From my testing, I’ve found my BG readings to be markedly higher than normal. Following the above testing procedures, my daily BG averages are between 239.4 and 289.8 mg/dl, with a total overall average of 248.64 mg/dl since Aug. 01. My FBGT’s are 217, 199, 221, and 196.4 mg/dl, also since Aug. 01. My neighbor advised me to see a Dr. as soon as I could, but continue to test my blood thru out the course of the day and record them, so that when I did see the Dr., I could provide that information to him and aid in my diagnosis. I’ve been using Jim Berry’s BG Tracker 4 to log my test results, events, etc. It’s an excellent program, my thanks to Jim Berry for this wonderful work. We’re new to our particular area, and we have no health insurance, so it took a while to search out a new Dr., and finally, now have an appointment for next week. I guess I’m past the ‘denial’ part of this… because I actually made the appointment. To clear up some of what I’ve read both here in the group and on the web, if I may… I do have some questions. I realize some of these may be difficult to answer definitively, so any information or experiences will be much appreciated. I apologize if some of these have been recently asked and answered. What test should I ask the Dr. for, or better… see that he asks for? Random Plasma Glucose Test, Fasting Plasma Glucose Test, HBA1C, Oral Glucose Tolerance Test, Urine Test, Lipids Panel, or all of the above? Which of the above tests are the most definitive in diagnosing diabetes, and which test determines type I from type II? 1.) A rough idea of what these test might cost? This one is difficult due to all the variables, but if some of you have an approximate figure. 2.) How much per month or per year will meds, test materials, etc. cost someone without insurance? 3.) Do all diabetics require pills or insulin injections to control diabetes, or can a change in diet taking no meds at all control diabetes, particularly with BG’s like mine? 4.) Can these troubles (ie: the tingling, numbness, spasms, etc.) be reversed thru the meds I might be taking for my diabetes, or at least, once I get my BG under control, via a change in diet without meds? In closing… I thank all of you who have shared their experiences here in the group, my most humble thanks to all of you that reply to my questions and posting, House-mouse

Response:

I’m glad your neighbor brought it to your attention. It sounds like he was concerned. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My symptoms and troubles are constant thirst and urination (no > ‘frequency’ about it), a weak / washed out / no energy kind of > feeling, a tingling and an over-sensitivity in fingers and toes, feet > and hands, numbness in my left hand, and a burning or freezing feeling > in the soles of my feet. Of late, frequent bouts of nausea, slightly > blurred vision, and I now often experience leg spasms in the evening > and while sleeping. > From my testing, I’ve found my BG readings to be markedly higher than > normal. Following the above testing procedures, my daily BG averages > are between 239.4 and 289.8 mg/dl, with a total overall average of > 248.64 mg/dl since Aug. 01. My FBGT’s are 217, 199, 221, and 196.4 > mg/dl, also since Aug. 01. My neighbor advised me to see a Dr. as > soon as I could, but continue to test my blood thru out the course of > the day and record them, so that when I did see the Dr., I could > provide that information to him and aid in my diagnosis. I’ve been > using Jim Berry’s BG Tracker 4 to log my test results, events, etc. > It’s an excellent program, my thanks to Jim Berry for this wonderful > work.

Blood glucose is way too high. > We’re new to our particular area, and we have no health insurance, so > it took a while to search out a new Dr., and finally, now have an > appointment for next week. I guess I’m past the ‘denial’ part of > this… because I actually made the appointment.

Even without health insurance, you can’t afford NOT to get it taken care of. The longer you delay, the more complications, the more expense. Better or take an aggressive approach to treatment. It will cost less in the end. Strips will be the biggie. I use the Wal Mart Relion meter. The meter is about 9$ and the strips are around 42 for 100. It’s half the cost of other meters. It is the most vital tool you will own in the fight against this illness. > To clear up some of what I’ve read both here in the group and on the > web, if I may… I do have some questions. I realize some of these > may be difficult to answer definitively, so any information or > experiences will be much appreciated. I apologize if some of these > have been recently asked and answered. > What test should I ask the Dr. for, or better… see that he asks for? > Random Plasma Glucose Test, Fasting Plasma Glucose Test, HBA1C, Oral > Glucose Tolerance Test, Urine Test, Lipids Panel, or all of the above?

Since you’ve already started recording your readings the necessary diagnostic test would be the Alc for starters. Then you want the urine, lipids, liver panel etc. These tests should be done every three months to start. I minimum of every 6mos. > Which of the above tests are the most definitive in diagnosing > diabetes, and which test determines type I from type II? > 1.) A rough idea of what these test might cost?

That’s depend upon where you live and where you go. Larger cities may have clinics that offer free or low cost services. Ask around. > This one is difficult due to all the variables, but if some of you > have an approximate figure. > 2.) How much per month or per year will meds, test materials, etc. > cost someone without insurance?

Again, depends upon meds. I think someone here posted a while back that $1400 per year would be about the minimum for decent care. > 3.) Do all diabetics require pills or insulin injections to control > diabetes, or can a change in diet taking no meds at all control > diabetes, particularly with BG’s like mine?

No not everyone does. You may have to use meds to begin with to get you readings back down. It can be done with diet and exercise. Meds or no, you need to make a committment to fighting this illness. > 4.) Can these troubles (ie: the tingling, numbness, spasms, etc.) be > reversed thru the meds I might be taking for my diabetes, or at least, > once I get my BG under control, via a change in diet without meds?

Not completely. It can be stopped though with good control. Your vision and the peeing should return to normal when you BG’s get back under control. > In closing… I thank all of you who have shared their experiences > here in the group, my most humble thanks to all of you that reply to > my questions and posting, > House-mouse

Keep posting. There’s a lot to learn but it can be done. c – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

> My symptoms and troubles are constant thirst and urination (no > ‘frequency’ about it), a weak / washed out / no energy kind of > feeling, a tingling and an over-sensitivity in fingers and toes, feet > and hands, numbness in my left hand, and a burning or freezing feeling > in the soles of my feet. Of late, frequent bouts of nausea, slightly > blurred vision, and I now often experience leg spasms in the evening > and while sleeping.

Get your BG (blood glucose) down and your symptoms may ease. > From my testing, I’ve found my BG readings to be markedly higher than > normal. Following the above testing procedures, my daily BG averages > are between 239.4 and 289.8 mg/dl, with a total overall average of > 248.64 mg/dl since Aug. 01. My FBGT’s are 217, 199, 221, and 196.4 > mg/dl, also since Aug. 01. My neighbor advised me to see a Dr. as > soon as I could, but continue to test my blood thru out the course of > the day and record them, so that when I did see the Dr., I could > provide that information to him and aid in my diagnosis. I’ve been > using Jim Berry’s BG Tracker 4 to log my test results, events, etc. > It’s an excellent program, my thanks to Jim Berry for this wonderful > work.

Good idea. But also cut back on the carbs. Do what you can to get your BG down now. > We’re new to our particular area, and we have no health insurance, so > it took a while to search out a new Dr., and finally, now have an > appointment for next week. I guess I’m past the ‘denial’ part of > this… because I actually made the appointment.

Good! > To clear up some of what I’ve read both here in the group and on the > web, if I may… I do have some questions. I realize some of these > may be difficult to answer definitively, so any information or > experiences will be much appreciated. I apologize if some of these > have been recently asked and answered. > What test should I ask the Dr. for, or better… see that he asks for? > Random Plasma Glucose Test, Fasting Plasma Glucose Test, HBA1C, Oral > Glucose Tolerance Test, Urine Test, Lipids Panel, or all of the above?

I don’t think you need to ask the Dr. for specific tests. Bring in the list of your BG readings and tell the Dr. your symptoms. You’ve already diagnosed yourself from your high readings. The Dr. may or may not want to do an additional test to cofirm this. In my case the Hba1C was what the Dr. used to diagnose. > Which of the above tests are the most definitive in diagnosing > diabetes, and which test determines type I from type II?

Depends on the person. Urine test and lipids panel do not diagnose diabetes. HbA1c is usually not used for diagnosis, but a high HbA1c would be used for diagnosis. > 1.) A rough idea of what these test might cost?

Can’t help you there. I just pay a percentage of what my insurance doesn’t pay. > This one is difficult due to all the variables, but if some of you > have an approximate figure. > 2.) How much per month or per year will meds, test materials, etc. > cost someone without insurance?

Again, can’t help you there. Sorry. > 3.) Do all diabetics require pills or insulin injections to control > diabetes, or can a change in diet taking no meds at all control > diabetes, particularly with BG’s like mine?

Some people can control with diet and exercise alone. Some need pills, and some need insulin or insulin and pills. But diet and exercise are vital for everyone. Also keep in mind that diabetes is an ever changing thing. I’ve been on pills, off, then back on again. > 4.) Can these troubles (ie: the tingling, numbness, spasms, etc.) be > reversed thru the meds I might be taking for my diabetes, or at least, > once I get my BG under control, via a change in diet without meds?

The symptoms you describe sound like Neuropathy caused by high BG. This can only be diagnosed by seeing a Neurologist. I find that keeping my BG <150 (preferably lower) makes the symptoms go away. I also take Evening Primrose Oil. Other treatments (that didn’t work for me) are low doses of anti-depressants and a ramping up program of Neurontin. > In closing… I thank all of you who have shared their experiences > here in the group, my most humble thanks to all of you that reply to > my questions and posting,

Welcome to the group! — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

Response:

house-mouse wrote in part … My symptoms and troubles are constant thirst and urination (no ‘frequency’ about it), a weak / washed out / no energy kind of feeling, a tingling and an over-sensitivity in fingers and toes, feet and hands, numbness in my left hand, and a burning or freezing feeling in the soles of my feet. Of late, frequent bouts of nausea, slightly blurred vision, and I now often experience leg spasms in the evening and while sleeping. From my testing, I’ve found my BG readings to be markedly higher than normal. Following the above testing procedures, my daily BG averages are between 239.4 and 289.8 mg/dl, with a total overall average of 248.64 mg/dl since Aug. 01. My FBGT’s are 217, 199, 221, and 196.4 mg/dl, also since Aug. 01. My neighbor advised me to see a Dr. as soon as I could, but continue to test my blood thru out the course of the day and record them, so that when I did see the Dr., I could provide that information to him and aid in my diagnosis. I’ve been using Jim Berry’s BG Tracker 4 to log my test results, events, etc. It’s an excellent program, my thanks to Jim Berry for this wonderful work. What test should I ask the Dr. for, or better… see that he asks for? Random Plasma Glucose Test, fasting Plasma Glucose Test, HBA1C, Oral Glucose Tolerance Test, Urine Test, Lipids Panel, or all of the above? Which of the above tests are the most definitive in diagnosing diabetes, and which test determines type I from type II? 1.) A rough idea of what these test might cost? This one is difficult due to all the variables, but if some of you have an approximate figure. 2.) How much per month or per year will meds, test materials, etc. cost someone without insurance? 3.) Do all diabetics require pills or insulin injections to control diabetes, or can a change in diet taking no meds at all control diabetes, particularly with BG’s like mine? 4.) Can these troubles (ie: the tingling, numbness, spasms, etc.) be reversed thru the meds I might be taking for my diabetes, or at least, once I get my BG under control, via a change in diet without meds? In closing… I thank all of you who have shared their experiences here in the group, my most humble thanks to all of you that reply to my questions and posting, House Mouse, Welcome and let me say that I’m sure there will be many more answers to follow mine. First and foremost, get to the doc as quickly as possible. Without going into all of the symptoms, let me say that you display nearly all of them. The tingling you feel is known as neuropathy and is caused by excessively high blood sugar levels. The good news is that, in most cases, it can be lessened or even reversed if blood sugars are brought back in line and kept there. As to what tests to get at the medical office, I would recommend a GTT (Glucose Tolerance Test) as well as an HbA1c (Hemoglobin Blood A1c) and an FBG (Fasting Blood Glucose) at a minimum. Your doc may want to do more depending on your medical history. Others in the group may have additional recommendations based on their personal experience. Not *all* diabetics require medication to control their diabetes. Some use diet and exercise only, while others use a combination of meds, diet, and exercise. The treatment is unique to each person and depends on your diabetes profile. If you respond well to diet and exercise or oral medication plus diet and exercise, you are probably a type 2. Again, your doctor will be able to determine this much better than anyone here on the group. What I’ve given you is just a start. Others will be along to add to what I’ve said. Again — Please, Please, for your sake. Get to the doc as soon as you can. I can’t stress this enough. We are all here for you. Write back and let us know how it is going. Arnie –

Response:

: First, I would like to extend my sincere greetings to the group, and : for all of the information I have garnered by lurking the past couple : of weeks, offer my utmost thanks! Second… this is my very first : posting to a newsgroup, so I hope I am doing this properly. : Welcome.. sorry you had to join us. : To offer some background on myself… I am male, 49 years old, 6′, : 300# and a smoker, and due to a work injury, a retired auto mechanic : and now a ‘house-husband’, married for 27 wonderful years. I’ve : always enjoyed good health, till back in ’82 when Dr’s treated me : after suffering a mini Cerebral Vascular Accident or stroke, which my : Dr. said was brought about by stress. I initially suffered partial : paralysis on my left side, loss of clear speech and such, but thru : mostly home therapy and determination, I was able to regain most of my : physical abilities, can walk but not run, swim, was able to work again : after 1.75 years of recovery… up until my leg and back injury forced : me into early retirement. My mother’s father, now deceased, was type : II diabetic. No other references to diabetes in my family history are : known. Bummer… sorry to hear that. : : Two months ago, after a lengthy discussion on diabetes with my : neighbor, who is Type II diabetic, I learned that I may be diabetic : as well. We discussed the symptoms and the physical troubles he : suffers due to this disease, and after hearing that I too had some of : the symptoms and troubles, to which I initially attributed to other : causes, he gave me his spare MediSense Precision QID Test kit. He : taught me how to use the meter, and explained the prescribed testing : times, for instance… how to do a Fasting Blood Glucose Test, testing : just before and then again 2 hrs after meals, and at bedtime. : good neighbor keep him around.. will be good to help you adjust and someone close to talk to about the ups and downs. : My symptoms and troubles are constant thirst and urination (no : ‘frequency’ about it), a weak / washed out / no energy kind of : feeling, a tingling and an over-sensitivity in fingers and toes, feet : and hands, numbness in my left hand, and a burning or freezing feeling : in the soles of my feet. Of late, frequent bouts of nausea, slightly : blurred vision, and I now often experience leg spasms in the evening : and while sleeping. : : From my testing, I’ve found my BG readings to be markedly higher than : normal. Following the above testing procedures, my daily BG averages : are between 239.4 and 289.8 mg/dl, with a total overall average of : 248.64 mg/dl since Aug. 01. My FBGT’s are 217, 199, 221, and 196.4 : mg/dl, also since Aug. 01. My neighbor advised me to see a Dr. as : soon as I could, but continue to test my blood thru out the course of : the day and record them, so that when I did see the Dr., I could : provide that information to him and aid in my diagnosis. I’ve been : using Jim Berry’s BG Tracker 4 to log my test results, events, etc. : It’s an excellent program, my thanks to Jim Berry for this wonderful : work. when you had the 289 should have gone to the ER. anything really over 250 should have emergency treatment initally. at 200 an ER would have diagnosed you at that point. thats good you’re logging. keep track of your foods, how you feel at each point.. take all records to the doctors with you. : : We’re new to our particular area, and we have no health insurance, so : it took a while to search out a new Dr., and finally, now have an : appointment for next week. I guess I’m past the ‘denial’ part of : this… because I actually made the appointment. : some never have denial. : To clear up some of what I’ve read both here in the group and on the : web, if I may… I do have some questions. I realize some of these : may be difficult to answer definitively, so any information or : experiences will be much appreciated. I apologize if some of these : have been recently asked and answered. : : What test should I ask the Dr. for, or better… see that he asks for? : Random Plasma Glucose Test, Fasting Plasma Glucose Test, HBA1C, Oral : Glucose Tolerance Test, Urine Test, Lipids Panel, or all of the above? Cost wise.. If you’re over 200 i’m sure the doctor will diagnose you at that point. They might also want a fasting glucose test., urine test to test for protein in the urine (kidney check) and Lipids Panel. The rest is a mute point. : : Which of the above tests are the most definitive in diagnosing : diabetes, and which test determines type I from type II? none of the above tests are to determine the two. you would need a c-peptide and GAD65, Insulin Antibodies, Islet Antibodies, Which mine ran about $590 just to tell me i was a LADA which I already knew from what I learned here and reading online. At your weight, you can almost bet the farm you are a T2, not a T1. : : 1.) A rough idea of what these test might cost? You’d have to call around to different labs. many will do a reduced rate for cash payments. But you’d prolly be looking at a couple hundred. : : This one is difficult due to all the variables, but if some of you : have an approximate figure. : 2.) How much per month or per year will meds, test materials, etc. : cost someone without insurance? depends upon the meds you will need. with a bit of weight loss you more then likely can do alot with diet & exercise (if able) otherwise. to give you an idea. here is my monthly breakdown. mind you i’m a t1. my monthly meds run $549.00 .. yes before my hubbys insurance kicked in after we moved, I did pay that for 7 months out of pocket. : : 3.) Do all diabetics require pills or insulin injections to control : diabetes, or can a change in diet taking no meds at all control : diabetes, particularly with BG’s like mine? Once you change your eating habits, exercise and perhaps take meds for a few months, your bg’s should go down quite a bit. Basically you want to "unstress" your system. You might need insulin for a few months to help get them back in order if you’re unable to exercise. (It don’t hurt.. I promise.. less pain then prickin your finger) : : 4.) Can these troubles (ie: the tingling, numbness, spasms, etc.) be : reversed thru the meds I might be taking for my diabetes, or at least, : once I get my BG under control, via a change in diet without meds? : Diet will be your biggest factor. Yes.. the tingling, numbness, spasms should decrease if not stop with control of your bg’s. : In closing… I thank all of you who have shared their experiences : here in the group, my most humble thanks to all of you that reply to : my questions and posting, : Keep asking questions.. find the need to vent.. feel free, we’ve all been where you are now. You can make it. It’s not that hard.. Once you adapt.. it’s almost second nature. Good Luck RK T1 – 5/00 : : House-mouse :

Response:

Hi House Mouse. Let’s assume you have diabetes, and with no insurance it can be tough, but I cut corners where I can and buy the vital stuff like strips to test often. The Relion Meter and strips from Wal-Mart are about the cheapest, or E-Bay. Also, after the initial work at the lab,(which varies from lab to lab, so ask the doctor to refer you to the cheapest one) you can buy the A1c over the counter from Walgreens and other places for about 20.00 and keep track of it yourself. I also avail myself of clinics that come to town for things like cholesterol screening at reasonable costs. I recently had a sonagram checking for aneurysms, a leg circulation test, and a carotid blood flow test for $99.00 from a mobile medical unit. All these things help, and if you tell the Doctor up front that you’re paying cash, many give discounts. I save as much money as I can and put it in a medical fund in case of emergency, and you want to make sure that you DON’T let something go such as a sore that doesn’t heal or something like that just because you don’t have insurance, so it’s best to have a little stashed for those times. Also, for some, losing weight helps with the amount of meds they have to take, and many have been able to be off them with diet and excercise. I follow a low carb diet and am not on meds at this time, but different diets work for different people, and some have to have meds. There are a lot of variables, so one size doesn’t fit all. I can tell you the the neuropathy in my feet is much better now that my numbers are better, but let the numbers go high and so does the pain. I’ve found expensive remedies like Capsaicin Cream and things like that to be pretty worthless, but I do take 2000 mg of Evening Primrose Oil a day and I think it helps. I’m sorry this is long, and I wish you the best. Keep us posted. — Cheri

Response:

This post not CC’d by email >First, I would like to extend my sincere greetings to the group, and >for all of the information I have garnered by lurking the past couple >of weeks, offer my utmost thanks!

G’day G’day House-mouse, Thanks, we appreciate you taking the time to get to know what is happening here before taking the plunge. > Second… this is my very first posting to a newsgroup, so I hope > I am doing this properly.

You are doing just fine … better than many. >To offer some background on myself… I am male, 49 years old, 6′, >300# and a smoker, and due to a work injury, a retired auto mechanic >and now a ‘house-husband’, married for 27 wonderful years. I’ve >always enjoyed good health, till back in ’82 when Dr’s treated me >after suffering a mini Cerebral Vascular Accident or stroke, which my >Dr. said was brought about by stress.

The doctors probably didn’t want to mention the smoking. It is a pretty touchy subject so even if they did it is not something one would recall. Smoking plays merry hell with the vascular system. Viagra is an add on sale for the tobacco industry. The only thing that surprises me is they don’t create a giant monopoly. It is fairly common knowledge that diabetics contribute majorly to the statistics on amputations. What is less well known is the smoking diabetics make up something like 90% of diabetic amputees. >I initially suffered partial >paralysis on my left side, loss of clear speech and such, but thru >mostly home therapy and determination, I was able to regain most of my >physical abilities, can walk but not run, swim, was able to work again >after 1.75 years of recovery… up until my leg and back injury forced >me into early retirement.

In New Zealand there is a program called Outward Bound. The participants man small sailing craft and do bush survival training. It all apparently started from an observation from World War 2 that it wasn’t the young and fit who survived in the lifeboats. The older crusty individuals with experiences of facing deprivation and meeting challenges did far better. What I am saying here is pretty simple. You have been through and ordeal. There is no fooling you or even needing to explain to you what is required to survive. You know that and were not found wanting. >My mother’s father, now deceased, was type >II diabetic. No other references to diabetes in my family history are >known. >Two months ago, after a lengthy discussion on diabetes with my >neighbor, who is Type II diabetic, I learned that I may be diabetic >as well.

Please convey our thanks to him. The government should hand out petrol vouchers. >We discussed the symptoms and the physical troubles he >suffers due to this disease, and after hearing that I too had some of >the symptoms and troubles, to which I initially attributed to other >causes, he gave me his spare MediSense Precision QID Test kit. He >taught me how to use the meter, and explained the prescribed testing >times, for instance… how to do a Fasting Blood Glucose Test, testing >just before and then again 2 hrs after meals, and at bedtime.

Brilliant. You have a good teacher. >My symptoms and troubles are constant thirst and urination (no >’frequency’ about it), a weak / washed out / no energy kind of >feeling, a tingling and an over-sensitivity in fingers and toes, feet >and hands, numbness in my left hand, and a burning or freezing feeling >in the soles of my feet. Of late, frequent bouts of nausea, slightly >blurred vision, and I now often experience leg spasms in the evening >and while sleeping. >From my testing, I’ve found my BG readings to be markedly higher than >normal. Following the above testing procedures, my daily BG averages >are between 239.4 and 289.8 mg/dl, with a total overall average of >248.64 mg/dl since Aug. 01. My FBGT’s are 217, 199, 221, and 196.4 >mg/dl, also since Aug. 01.

Two FBGTs over 126 is sufficient to diagnose T2 diabetes. Well to the club. The waiting list is long. No-one gets black balled and told they can’t belong if they qualify. >My neighbor advised me to see a Dr. as >soon as I could, but continue to test my blood thru out the course of >the day and record them, so that when I did see the Dr., I could >provide that information to him and aid in my diagnosis. I’ve been >using Jim Berry’s BG Tracker 4 to log my test results, events, etc. >It’s an excellent program, my thanks to Jim Berry for this wonderful >work. >We’re new to our particular area, and we have no health insurance, so >it took a while to search out a new Dr., and finally, now have an >appointment for next week. I guess I’m past the ‘denial’ part of >this… because I actually made the appointment.

Good on you. We all do denial. I did for about an hour last week. It didn’t seem to be leading in a healthy direction so I changed tack. >To clear up some of what I’ve read both here in the group and on the >web, if I may… I do have some questions. I realize some of these >may be difficult to answer definitively, so any information or >experiences will be much appreciated. I apologize if some of these >have been recently asked and answered.

No probs. Think of it this way. You lurked. You aren’t all that unique so there will be more lurkers out there wondering about the same questions. If no one dropped in and asked the questions how would they ever find out some of the answers. Of course by dropping in the big benefit is the answers get to be tailor made. >What test should I ask the Dr. for, or better… see that he asks for? >Random Plasma Glucose Test, Fasting Plasma Glucose Test, HBA1C, Oral >Glucose Tolerance Test, Urine Test, Lipids Panel, or all of the above?

You doctor is going to be the person who knows you best. I’d go for HbA1c (now called A1c), urine tests, lipids panel and blood pressure. IMHO you are way past the point where a oral glucose tolerance test is going to be meaningful. I only mention the tests at all because stumping up the cash is of concern. >Which of the above tests are the most definitive in diagnosing >diabetes, and which test determines type I from type II?

None of them do. Someone else will have to come up with an answer to that one. >1.) A rough idea of what these test might cost? >This one is difficult due to all the variables, but if some of you >have an approximate figure. >2.) How much per month or per year will meds, test materials, etc. >cost someone without insurance?

The NZ health system is different. Sorry can’t help. >3.) Do all diabetics require pills or insulin injections to control >diabetes, or can a change in diet taking no meds at all control >diabetes, particularly with BG’s like mine?

The hierarchy is a. diet b. diet plus exercise c. diet plus exercise plus oral med d. diet plus exercise plus insulin You might have to start with d and work you way back. >4.) Can these troubles (ie: the tingling, numbness, spasms, etc.) be >reversed thru the meds I might be taking for my diabetes, or at least, >once I get my BG under control, via a change in diet without meds?

Now that is a bit tricky. Some is reversible and some isn’t. It is hard to tell till you try. Let’s take vision for example. The vision might initially get more blurry as the blood glucose levels change but that passes as they stabilize. It happens so often it is just part of the process. If blood glucose levels aren’t brought down then eventually damage is done. Can you see there are two quite distinct situation even with eyes. Some temporary nuisance stuff and some bad ass permanent stuff earnestly to be avoided. >In closing… I thank all of you who have shared their experiences >here in the group, my most humble thanks to all of you that reply to >my questions and posting,

No probs. >House-mouse

Best wishes, — Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / / "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Response:

Welcome to the group. This is a great place to learn a lot, and two books that I found very helpful were Gretchen Becker’s Type 2 Diabetes the First Year and Diabetes for Dummies. One of the best pieces of advice I got was to eat to my meter. Test a lot at first and soon you’ll find out what you can and can’t eat by using your meter. I found it helpful to keep a log of food, exercise, and BG when I was first diagnosed, but I kept it simple. I bought an inexpensive, bright red 7′x5" notebook at the drugstore. It fit in my purse and the color helped me keep track of it in the clutter of my kitchen. I tried to write everything down as soon as I could, but if I forgot, I’d log it as soon as I remembered. I tried not to set myself up for failure by getting too compulsive about it. I figured whatever info I compiled was better than nothing. Will you be able to see a dietitian? Some are better than others, but at least for most people it is a starting point to customize your own food plan, which would include when and how many carbs to eat. In the meanwhile, test, test, test. This is the only way you’ll really find out how foods affect your blood glucose. Don’t know much about the cost of supplies, meds, etc. because I’m fortunate to have excellent insurance. Is there anyway you can get coverage before you get the formal diagnosis? I think with your numbers, your doc will probably put you on meds right away. Some folks have been able to get off meds with lifestyle changes. There’s a lot to learn, so don’t let yourself be overwhelmed. Good luck. — Best wishes Louise Type 2, controlling by diet and exercise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> First, I would like to extend my sincere greetings to the group, and > for all of the information I have garnered by lurking the past couple > of weeks, offer my utmost thanks! Second… this is my very first > posting to a newsgroup, so I hope I am doing this properly. > To offer some background on myself… I am male, 49 years old, 6′, > 300# and a smoker, and due to a work injury, a retired auto mechanic > and now a ‘house-husband’, married for 27 wonderful years. I’ve > always enjoyed good health, till back in ’82 when Dr’s treated me > after suffering a mini Cerebral Vascular Accident or stroke, which my > Dr. said was brought about by stress. I initially suffered partial > paralysis on my left side, loss of clear speech and such, but thru > mostly home therapy and determination, I was able to regain most of my > physical abilities, can walk but not run, swim, was able to work again > after 1.75 years of recovery… up until my leg and back injury forced > me into early retirement. My mother’s father, now deceased, was type > II diabetic. No other references to diabetes in my family history are > known. > Two months ago, after a lengthy discussion on diabetes with my > neighbor, who is Type II diabetic, I learned that I may be diabetic > as well. We discussed the symptoms and the physical troubles he > suffers due to this disease, and after hearing that I too had some of > the symptoms and troubles, to which I initially attributed to other > causes, he gave me his spare MediSense Precision QID Test kit. He > taught me how to use the meter, and explained the prescribed testing > times, for instance… how to do a Fasting Blood Glucose Test, testing > just before and then again 2 hrs after meals, and at bedtime. > My symptoms and troubles are constant thirst and urination (no > ‘frequency’ about it), a weak / washed out / no energy kind of > feeling, a tingling and an over-sensitivity in fingers and toes, feet > and hands, numbness in my left hand, and a burning or freezing feeling > in the soles of my feet. Of late, frequent bouts of nausea, slightly > blurred vision, and I now often experience leg spasms in the evening > and while sleeping. > From my testing, I’ve found my BG readings to be markedly higher than > normal. Following the above testing procedures, my daily BG averages > are between 239.4 and 289.8 mg/dl, with a total overall average of > 248.64 mg/dl since Aug. 01. My FBGT’s are 217, 199, 221, and 196.4 > mg/dl, also since Aug. 01. My neighbor advised me to see a Dr. as > soon as I could, but continue to test my blood thru out the course of > the day and record them, so that when I did see the Dr., I could > provide that information to him and aid in my diagnosis. I’ve been > using Jim Berry’s BG Tracker 4 to log my test results, events, etc. > It’s an excellent program, my thanks to Jim Berry for this wonderful > work. > We’re new to our particular area, and we have no health insurance, so > it took a while to search out a new Dr., and finally, now have an > appointment for next week. I guess I’m past the ‘denial’ part of > this… because I actually made the appointment. > To clear up some of what I’ve read both here in the group and on the > web, if I may… I do have some questions. I realize some of these > may be difficult to answer definitively, so any information or > experiences will be much appreciated. I apologize if some of these > have been recently asked and answered. > What test should I ask the Dr. for, or better… see that he asks for? > Random Plasma Glucose Test, Fasting Plasma Glucose Test, HBA1C, Oral > Glucose Tolerance Test, Urine Test, Lipids Panel, or all of the above? > Which of the above tests are the most definitive in diagnosing > diabetes, and which test determines type I from type II? > 1.) A rough idea of what these test might cost? > This one is difficult due to all the variables, but if some of you > have an approximate figure. > 2.) How much per month or per year will meds, test materials, etc. > cost someone without insurance? > 3.) Do all diabetics require pills or insulin injections to control > diabetes, or can a change in diet taking no meds at all control > diabetes, particularly with BG’s like mine? > 4.) Can these troubles (ie: the tingling, numbness, spasms, etc.) be > reversed thru the meds I might be taking for my diabetes, or at least, > once I get my BG under control, via a change in diet without meds? > In closing… I thank all of you who have shared their experiences > here in the group, my most humble thanks to all of you that reply to > my questions and posting, > House-mouse

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >First, I would like to extend my sincere greetings to the group, and >for all of the information I have garnered by lurking the past couple >of weeks, offer my utmost thanks! Second… this is my very first >posting to a newsgroup, so I hope I am doing this properly. >To offer some background on myself… I am male, 49 years old, 6′, >300# . . .(snip). . . >me into early retirement. My mother’s father, now deceased, was type >II diabetic. No other references to diabetes in my family history are >known. >, , ,(snip). . . >My symptoms and troubles are constant thirst and urination (no >’frequency’ about it), a weak / washed out / no energy kind of >feeling, a tingling and an over-sensitivity in fingers and toes, feet >and hands, numbness in my left hand, and a burning or freezing feeling >in the soles of my feet. Of late, frequent bouts of nausea, slightly >blurred vision, and I now often experience leg spasms in the evening >and while sleeping. >From my testing, I’ve found my BG readings to be markedly higher than >normal. Following the above testing procedures, my daily BG averages >are between 239.4 and 289.8 mg/dl, with a total overall average of >248.64 mg/dl since Aug. 01. My FBGT’s are 217, 199, 221, and 196.4 >mg/dl, also since Aug. 01. . .(snip). . . >We’re new to our particular area, and we have no health insurance, so >it took a while to search out a new Dr., and finally, now have an >appointment for next week. I guess I’m past the ‘denial’ part of >this… because I actually made the appointment. . . .(snip). . . >What test should I ask the Dr. for, or better… see that he asks for? >Random Plasma Glucose Test, Fasting Plasma Glucose Test, HBA1C, Oral >Glucose Tolerance Test, Urine Test, Lipids Panel, or all of the above? >Which of the above tests are the most definitive in diagnosing >diabetes, and which test determines type I from type II? >1.) A rough idea of what these test might cost? >This one is difficult due to all the variables, but if some of you >have an approximate figure. >2.) How much per month or per year will meds, test materials, etc. >cost someone without insurance? >3.) Do all diabetics require pills or insulin injections to control >diabetes, or can a change in diet taking no meds at all control >diabetes, particularly with BG’s like mine? >4.) Can these troubles (ie: the tingling, numbness, spasms, etc.) be >reversed thru the meds I might be taking for my diabetes, or at least, >once I get my BG under control, via a change in diet without meds? >In closing… I thank all of you who have shared their experiences >here in the group, my most humble thanks to all of you that reply to >my questions and posting, >House-mouse

Two tests over 200 mg/dL at different times, or different days coupled with any of the standard symptoms of diabetes (frequent urination, neuropathy, etc) are sufficient to diagnose diabetes. You have more than enough symptoms for a positive diagnosis. In general, your doc won’t need to do much at all other than the type of tests you have already run. He/she may ask for a fasting blood glucose to make certain but I wouldn’t expect much more. He/she may be interested in some urine tests to see if your kidneys have been damaged. You will also need a very thorough eye exam. Ask for a diabetes eye exam and make certain the eye doctor feels qualified to give a diabetic eye exam. The expensive opthamologists are the best but my optometrist is very good and I trust his exams. The easiest and simplest way to differentiate between a Type 1 and Type 2 is to try the oral meds and see if they work. Your weight and family history really points at Type 2 so most docs will skip the expensive lab tests designed to determine if you might be a Type 1. You probably are in initial Glucose Toxicity which hides the true severity of your diabetes. The best way to knock down the toxicity is with a strong dose of oral meds, perhaps in combo with insulin injections. Once your bG are normalized, the doc can see if the pills will work. If not, you will need insulin injections. The oral medication metformin is an anti-diabetes/ anti-heart attack med for Type 2 diabetics. The generic form is pretty cheap. You can get the maximum daily dose (2500 mg/day) for about ten cents a day if you can mail order from the Canadian pharmacies. The U.S. pharmacies are more expensive. You should definitely ask your doc for the generic metformin if the he/she suggests the expensive, brand name Glucophage. Its hard to tell how much the generic beta stimulators will cost. It really depends on how much you need. Ask your doc if you can use the Candadian mail order sources. They sell Glyburide in Canada. I’m not certain about Glicizide (Glucotrol). I have a friend who uses Glenway and is quite happy with them. http://glenwaypharmacy.com/ Perhaps some other posters could recommend some of the other Canadian Pharmacies. http://www.canadameds.com/ and http://www.canadadrugstop.com/ are possible candidates. I don’t think the Canadian mail order suppliers sell mail order insulins The cheapest U.S. insulins are about $17 to $23 a bottle at Wal-Mart (Regular, NPH and Ultralente). I can get by with two bottles a month, you might need 4 bottles since you are Type 2. Ultralente is better than NPH but a bit harder to inject. We can tell you how to use it if you are willing to try. Syringes would be another $20 a month if you use them 1 or 2 times, less if you can get by using each one 4 times before discarding. The expensive insulins (Humalog, Novolog, Lantus) cost $53-55 a vial. Again, you might get by with two vials a month, you might need 4 vials a month. Its hard to tell until you try them. The expensive insulins are the easiest to use though a Type 2 might get fairly good control with the simple shot patterns and cheap insulins. The best treatment for your numbness is to get your blood sugars into the normal ranges as fast as possible and keep them there. The most powerful yet inexpensive therapies are metformin, Glyburide and injected insulin in combination. A type 2 diabetic on insulin can achieve spectacular blood sugar control though the thought of all those injections is scary. (BTW, I am a Type 1 and am willing to inject 7 to 12 times a day in order to get good control. I don’t think it’s much of a bother at all.) Do your homework and try to get by with the generics from Canada and the cheap insulins from Wal-Mart. The Wal-Mart Relion test strips are about half the cost of any of the others. I find them acceptable to good. Keep coming back and be willing to learn all the tricks we use. Reading the two diabetic newsgroups (Alt.support.diabetes and misc.health.diabetes) every night has resulted in significant improvements in my health, my ability to eat a varied diet, and my general quality of life. I am certain it has also increased my expected life span. Regards Old Al

Response:

Salutations house-mouse! Every thing seems to have been said already. I can tell you that as soon as my wt. dropped below 255 from 264 (YMMV) my BG took an immediate 20-30 pt. drop.You really encourage me in a weird kinda way. I was just describing to my wife the denial that goes on at my HMO "Group Session". To hear someone actually getting it makes me less discouraged. Call a local hospital to see if they have a diabetes group to network with. You’re on the right path, keep the chin up! — t2_lurking geabbottATabbottandabbottDOTcom Do not mail to t2_lurking (auto-delete)

Response:

. . .(snip). . .. > The oral medication metformin is an anti-diabetes/ anti-heart attack med >for Type 2 diabetics. The generic form is pretty cheap. You can get the >maximum daily dose (2500 mg/day) for about ten cents a day if you can mail >order from the Canadian pharmacies. The U.S. pharmacies are more >expensive. You should definitely ask your doc for the generic metformin if >the he/she suggests the expensive, brand name Glucophage. >. . .(snip). . .>

Oops! That’s was supposed to say: "You can get the maximum daily dose (2500 mg/day) for about a dollar a day if you. . ." One of the problems with injecting insulin is that after shooting a bit too much before dinner, you may experience a bG somewhere around 50 mg/dL and thus your arithmetic and spelling skills go to H*ll. Regards Old Al

Response:

says… >First, I would like to extend my sincere greetings to the group, and >for all of the information I have garnered by lurking the past couple >of weeks, offer my utmost thanks! Second… this is my very first >posting to a newsgroup, so I hope I am doing this properly.

Hi, welcome to the group! Sorry to see you here… >To offer some background on myself… I am male, 49 years old, 6′, >300# and a smoker, and due to a work injury, a retired auto mechanic >and now a ‘house-husband’, married for 27 wonderful years. I’ve >always enjoyed good health, till back in ’82 when Dr’s treated me >after suffering a mini Cerebral Vascular Accident or stroke, which my >Dr. said was brought about by stress. I initially suffered partial >paralysis on my left side, loss of clear speech and such, but thru >mostly home therapy and determination, I was able to regain most of my >physical abilities, can walk but not run, swim, was able to work again >after 1.75 years of recovery… up until my leg and back injury forced >me into early retirement. My mother’s father, now deceased, was type >II diabetic. No other references to diabetes in my family history are >known.

It’s the known part that can throw you. It’s a bit like cancer; a hundred years ago, there was a sigma attached to having it, so people died of ‘heart failure’. >Two months ago, after a lengthy discussion on diabetes with my >neighbor, who is Type II diabetic, I learned that I may be diabetic >as well. We discussed the symptoms and the physical troubles he >suffers due to this disease, and after hearing that I too had some of >the symptoms and troubles, to which I initially attributed to other >causes, he gave me his spare MediSense Precision QID Test kit. He >taught me how to use the meter, and explained the prescribed testing >times, for instance… how to do a Fasting Blood Glucose Test, testing >just before and then again 2 hrs after meals, and at bedtime.

Woo, GOOD guy! Make sure to keep HIM on the Christmas list! >My symptoms and troubles are constant thirst and urination (no >’frequency’ about it), a weak / washed out / no energy kind of >feeling, a tingling and an over-sensitivity in fingers and toes, feet >and hands, numbness in my left hand, and a burning or freezing feeling >in the soles of my feet. Of late, frequent bouts of nausea, slightly >blurred vision, and I now often experience leg spasms in the evening >and while sleeping.

Yep, that’s the stuff all right. >From my testing, I’ve found my BG readings to be markedly higher than >normal. Following the above testing procedures, my daily BG averages >are between 239.4 and 289.8 mg/dl, with a total overall average of >248.64 mg/dl since Aug. 01. My FBGT’s are 217, 199, 221, and 196.4 >mg/dl, also since Aug. 01.

Yipe. Too high. > My neighbor advised me to see a Dr. as >soon as I could, but continue to test my blood thru out the course of >the day and record them, so that when I did see the Dr., I could >provide that information to him and aid in my diagnosis. I’ve been >using Jim Berry’s BG Tracker 4 to log my test results, events, etc. >It’s an excellent program, my thanks to Jim Berry for this wonderful >work. >We’re new to our particular area, and we have no health insurance, so >it took a while to search out a new Dr., and finally, now have an >appointment for next week. I guess I’m past the ‘denial’ part of >this… because I actually made the appointment.

Good for you! REALLY good for you. >To clear up some of what I’ve read both here in the group and on the >web, if I may… I do have some questions. I realize some of these >may be difficult to answer definitively, so any information or >experiences will be much appreciated. I apologize if some of these >have been recently asked and answered. >What test should I ask the Dr. for, or better… see that he asks for? >Random Plasma Glucose Test, Fasting Plasma Glucose Test, HBA1C, Oral >Glucose Tolerance Test, Urine Test, Lipids Panel, or all of the above?

He’ll probably want to do the A1c and to test your urine for the presence of proteins, which would mean your kidneys are being strained. He may decide to do others, too. And he’ll probably direct that you quit smoking and start losing weight, ASAP. >Which of the above tests are the most definitive in diagnosing >diabetes, and which test determines type I from type II?

A1c, and if you have not been diagnosed with diabetes before this you’re a type II. >1.) A rough idea of what these test might cost? >This one is difficult due to all the variables, but if some of you >have an approximate figure.

$50-100 dollars? >2.) How much per month or per year will meds, test materials, etc. >cost someone without insurance?

That’s a hard one to answer and will depend on what the doctor prescribes. Test strips will be a certain expense; imagine at least $50 a month. Medications… who knows? The type, amount, and number you have to take a day will determine that. It is possible the doctor might be willing to give you a monitor, test strips, and even sample meds in large enough quantity to reduce your costs. Let him know you’ve got no insurance and need all the help you can get. >3.) Do all diabetics require pills or insulin injections to control >diabetes, or can a change in diet taking no meds at all control >diabetes, particularly with BG’s like mine?

No, diet, exercise, and weight loss can control diabetes in many cases. But not ALL cases. >4.) Can these troubles (ie: the tingling, numbness, spasms, etc.) be >reversed thru the meds I might be taking for my diabetes, or at least, >once I get my BG under control, via a change in diet without meds?

Yes. Many symptoms of diabetes decrease once your bgs are under control. Note that I said the symptoms decrease. The diabetes never will, and is yours for all eternity. Warms the cockles of your heart, doesn’t it? >In closing… I thank all of you who have shared their experiences >here in the group, my most humble thanks to all of you that reply to >my questions and posting, >House-mouse

Certainly! Our pleasure! Or at least it would be if it were a happier topic… FW

Response:

Greetings House Mouse, Everyone has given you excelant advise. My motto is " I control diabetes, not diabetes controls me" Diet, exercise and meds work together. At first you are confused, and then ——- more confuser about diabetes. I was diagnosed Dec 2000 with a 386 reading. I was hypoglycemic for over 30 yrs and the symptoms are the same. I thought I was going hypo too much and was just feeding the diabetes I am in control now but the first year for me was a roller coaster ride . Some get control early but then I have to be differant like always. You can do it I promise. Keep the faith and follow the Dr’s advice. The one big thing that helped me besides this group and I am deeply humbled by all their help. is going to diabetic classes or clinic. Keep us posted and ask all the questions you want. There is someone here that probably has the answer by their own experiences. Oh, don’t eat honey, just because it is natural. Hee Hee Been Yours Ira The Big_I he is wide as he is tall. T2 my wife is a T2 diabetic we are trying to keep it in the family

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > says… >First, I would like to extend my sincere greetings to the group, and >for all of the information I have garnered by lurking the past couple >of weeks, offer my utmost thanks! Second… this is my very first >posting to a newsgroup, so I hope I am doing this properly. > Hi, welcome to the group! > Sorry to see you here… >To offer some background on myself… I am male, 49 years old, 6′, >300# and a smoker, and due to a work injury, a retired auto mechanic >and now a ‘house-husband’, married for 27 wonderful years. I’ve >always enjoyed good health, till back in ’82 when Dr’s treated me >after suffering a mini Cerebral Vascular Accident or stroke, which my >Dr. said was brought about by stress. I initially suffered partial >paralysis on my left side, loss of clear speech and such, but thru >mostly home therapy and determination, I was able to regain most of my >physical abilities, can walk but not run, swim, was able to work again >after 1.75 years of recovery… up until my leg and back injury forced >me into early retirement. My mother’s father, now deceased, was type >II diabetic. No other references to diabetes in my family history are >known. > It’s the known part that can throw you. It’s a bit like > cancer; a hundred years ago, there was a sigma attached > to having it, so people died of ‘heart failure’. >Two months ago, after a lengthy discussion on diabetes with my >neighbor, who is Type II diabetic, I learned that I may be diabetic >as well. We discussed the symptoms and the physical troubles he >suffers due to this disease, and after hearing that I too had some of >the symptoms and troubles, to which I initially attributed to other >causes, he gave me his spare MediSense Precision QID Test kit. He >taught me how to use the meter, and explained the prescribed testing >times, for instance… how to do a Fasting Blood Glucose Test, testing >just before and then again 2 hrs after meals, and at bedtime. > Woo, GOOD guy! Make sure to keep HIM on the Christmas list! >My symptoms and troubles are constant thirst and urination (no >’frequency’ about it), a weak / washed out / no energy kind of >feeling, a tingling and an over-sensitivity in fingers and toes, feet >and hands, numbness in my left hand, and a burning or freezing feeling >in the soles of my feet. Of late, frequent bouts of nausea, slightly >blurred vision, and I now often experience leg spasms in the evening >and while sleeping. > Yep, that’s the stuff all right. >From my testing, I’ve found my BG readings to be markedly higher than >normal. Following the above testing procedures, my daily BG averages >are between 239.4 and 289.8 mg/dl, with a total overall average of >248.64 mg/dl since Aug. 01. My FBGT’s are 217, 199, 221, and 196.4 >mg/dl, also since Aug. 01. > Yipe. > Too high. > My neighbor advised me to see a Dr. as >soon as I could, but continue to test my blood thru out the course of >the day and record them, so that when I did see the Dr., I could >provide that information to him and aid in my diagnosis. I’ve been >using Jim Berry’s BG Tracker 4 to log my test results, events, etc. >It’s an excellent program, my thanks to Jim Berry for this wonderful >work. >We’re new to our particular area, and we have no health insurance, so >it took a while to search out a new Dr., and finally, now have an >appointment for next week. I guess I’m past the ‘denial’ part of >this… because I actually made the appointment. > Good for you! > REALLY good for you. >To clear up some of what I’ve read both here in the group and on the >web, if I may… I do have some questions. I realize some of these >may be difficult to answer definitively, so any information or >experiences will be much appreciated. I apologize if some of these >have been recently asked and answered. >What test should I ask the Dr. for, or better… see that he asks for? >Random Plasma Glucose Test, Fasting Plasma Glucose Test, HBA1C, Oral >Glucose Tolerance Test, Urine Test, Lipids Panel, or all of the above? > He’ll probably want to do the A1c and to test your urine > for the presence of proteins, which would mean your kidneys are > being strained. He may decide to do others, too. > And he’ll probably direct that you quit smoking and start losing > weight, ASAP. >Which of the above tests are the most definitive in diagnosing >diabetes, and which test determines type I from type II? > A1c, and if you have not been diagnosed with diabetes before this > you’re a type II. >1.) A rough idea of what these test might cost? >This one is difficult due to all the variables, but if some of you >have an approximate figure. > $50-100 dollars? >2.) How much per month or per year will meds, test materials, etc. >cost someone without insurance? > That’s a hard one to answer and will depend on what the > doctor prescribes. Test strips will be a certain expense; > imagine at least $50 a month. Medications… who knows? > The type, amount, and number you have to take a day will > determine that. > It is possible the doctor might be willing to give you > a monitor, test strips, and even sample meds in large > enough quantity to reduce your costs. Let him know > you’ve got no insurance and need all the help you can get. >3.) Do all diabetics require pills or insulin injections to control >diabetes, or can a change in diet taking no meds at all control >diabetes, particularly with BG’s like mine? > No, diet, exercise, and weight loss can control diabetes in > many cases. > But not ALL cases. >4.) Can these troubles (ie: the tingling, numbness, spasms, etc.) be >reversed thru the meds I might be taking for my diabetes, or at least, >once I get my BG under control, via a change in diet without meds? > Yes. Many symptoms of diabetes decrease once your bgs are > under control. > Note that I said the symptoms decrease. The diabetes never > will, and is yours for all eternity. > Warms the cockles of your heart, doesn’t it? >In closing… I thank all of you who have shared their experiences >here in the group, my most humble thanks to all of you that reply to >my questions and posting, >House-mouse > Certainly! Our pleasure! > Or at least it would be if it were a happier topic… > FW

Response:

House mouse how brave of you to come out of the shadows and become part of the group, I am sorry but in my non professional opinion you are definitely a diabetic. You should get a fasting blood sugar after twelve hours, an A1c, they have dropped the hb and if needed a glucose tolerance test if nothing is conclusive, How much these tests are I have no idea, but they are not cheap Do you have a local municipal hospital that has a clinic you can go to. Are you eligible for any medicaid assistance as you do not work, Are you on ssd and eligible for medicare which you should be I think after a year of receiving disability from social security. This certainly needs to be taken care of, The blurries have gone away for me, reversal of kidney protein , I hear the tingles go away too Good luck and please keep us posted as to what is happening with regards toyour being diabetic or anything else you want toknow, We support the disease and the person. Loretta — In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism.

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I use the Wal Mart Relion meter Too . Strips are about $22.00 for 50 currently , if you dont want 100 at the start . I Like mine , and you Just Have-To-Have it with Blood Glucose Numbers like that . Another is coming in the mail from a friend , who already has about 5 Good BG Meters ! tim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Even without health insurance, you can’t afford NOT to get it taken care of. > The longer you delay, the more complications, the more expense. Better or > take an aggressive approach to treatment. It will cost less in the end. > Strips will be the biggie. I use the Wal Mart Relion meter. The meter is > about 9$ and the strips are around 42 for 100. It’s half the cost of other > meters. It is the most vital tool you will own in the fight against this > illness.

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Cheri , Very Good Post , you-sweetie-pie-you . :-) !!! tim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi House Mouse. Let’s assume you have diabetes, and with no insurance it > can be tough, but I cut corners where I can and buy the vital stuff like > strips to test often. The Relion Meter and strips from Wal-Mart are > about the cheapest, or E-Bay. Also, after the initial work at the > lab,(which varies from lab to lab, so ask the doctor to refer you to the > cheapest one) you can buy the A1c over the counter from Walgreens and > other places for about 20.00 and keep track of it yourself. I also avail > myself of clinics that come to town for things like cholesterol > screening at reasonable costs. I recently had a sonagram checking for > aneurysms, a leg circulation test, and a carotid blood flow test for > $99.00 from a mobile medical unit. All these things help, and if you > tell the Doctor up front that you’re paying cash, many give discounts. I > save as much money as I can and put it in a medical fund in case of > emergency, and you want to make sure that you DON’T let something go > such as a sore that doesn’t heal or something like that just because you > don’t have insurance, so it’s best to have a little stashed for those > times. > Also, for some, losing weight helps with the amount of meds they have to > take, and many have been able to be off them with diet and excercise. I > follow a low carb diet and am not on meds at this time, but different > diets work for different people, and some have to have meds. There are a > lot of variables, so one size doesn’t fit all. I can tell you the the > neuropathy in my feet is much better now that my numbers are better, but > let the numbers go high and so does the pain. I’ve found expensive > remedies like Capsaicin Cream and things like that to be pretty > worthless, but I do take 2000 mg of Evening Primrose Oil a day and I > think it helps. I’m sorry this is long, and I wish you the best. Keep us > posted. > — > Cheri >First, I would like to extend my sincere greetings to the group, and >for all of the information I have garnered by lurking the past couple >of weeks, offer my utmost thanks! Second… this is my very first >posting to a newsgroup, so I hope I am doing this properly.

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